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أخر عشر مواضيع نداء الى استاذى الخبيش  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    المصطح اللساني والعروض  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    الذائقة والمنهج  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    تمر أو جمر  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    شعبي بلهجة من مصر  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    أمين الشحاتيت - 2  آخر رد: زمردة جرهم    <::>    المتقارب وشعراء العاميه المصري...  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    مارايكم بهذا الوزن فى بحور الخ...  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    ما قاله الجابري عن الخليل  آخر رد: (سحر نعمة الله)    <::>    مشكلات عروضية وحلولها  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    هذا السطر اعجبنى فى الخبب  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    تقديم الرقمي في المحور الثقافي  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    التفرقه بين اللام الشمسيه والق...  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    بالجملة أميرات شعر وبحور سابعة...  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    موضوع هام عن تقطيع الشعر الشعب...  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    خشان يتهم الفراهيدي!  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    التوأمان الوتديان  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>    2 2 2 في الحشو  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    درر أحمد فرج  آخر رد: أحمد فرج    <::>    أبو شوق وأبو جميل  آخر رد: خشان خشان    <::>   


الإهداءات


English Section This chapter presents in English some idea about the Arabic prosody, particularly through using numerals. It is meant for those English-speaking persons who may interested in Arabic culture.

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  #1  
قديم 01-07-2005, 11:54 AM
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Interesting Dialogue

تسلمت رسالة من السيد منيب الرحمن تتعلق بالعروض رقميا، وتراسلنا وكان هذا الحوار. والمرجو ممن له رأي بالموضوع أن يسهم به هنا.
هذه فرصة لإثبات جدوى هذا الأسلوب الرقمي لبحث موضوع عام في ثقافات مختلفة دون عوائق المصطلحات.




I received an email from Mr. Muneebur Rahman about numerical prosody. We exchanged further messages that formed this dialogue.
Those who have an opinion on the subject are requested to participate.
This is a chance to prove the use of this tool of numerical approach to discuss a common subject between various cultures without the barriers of terms.


***************
1

Dear sir,

I don't know Arabic but I wanted to know what you have written on five pages of your web site about Al-Biruni and Arud-al Hind. Is there any way to see those pages in English translation?

Regards
Muneeb ur Rahman

***************

2

Dear Sir

thanks for your concern

basically I proved that Al-Biruni mentioned that Arud-al Hind used the numbers 1 and 2 to express the same concept I used to describe the rhythm of poetry.

I wrote Arabic lines of poetry according to the mentioned Indian Arud.

Maybe we meet one day on Yahoo messenger.

For the time being the general approach for numerical prosody is described in English on:


http://www.arood.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=94


You are invited to participate on this forum.

And please have alook on :

http://www.geocities.com/khashan_kh/57-urdu.html

where I added numbers to the English text.

Best regards

Khashan

***************
3

Dear Khashan,

Thank you for replying my email with the explanation. I quickly browsed the links you mentioned. It seems you are proposing a universal metrical theory that could be applied to poetries of different languages including English which is considered a stress language and because of that fact people believe quantitative metrics doesn' work best for it. This si an area that is interesting. In fact many languages Greek, Sanskrit, Latin have used quantitatives meter. Well they are related. But how did Arabic meter come to be quanitative. Arabic is not related to languages mentioned earlier. This meter has worked for Arabic and also in a large number of languages that adopted Arabic meter. This meter has a sort of universality to it. I was interested in knowing how much al-Khalil was influenced by sanskrit metrics. Al-Biruni is the only person to have alluded to that proposition. Is it a coincidence? Is it because both meters are quanitative? Or did al-Khalil really base his theory on Indidan metrics. I don't know Arabic but when I saw mention of al-Biruni on your web site I thought you might be talking on the historical aspect of Arabic and Indian metrics.

Do you have any opinion on this? What is the general opinion about this among Arab scholars?

I am not a scholar, not even a poet. It's just for my own interest that once a while spend time deliberating on these issues. I work in the US and am basically form India.

Thank you for your time.
Muneeb

***************

4


Dear Muneeb ,
I appreciate your concentration on the this beautiful and delicate topic


Thank you for replying my email with the explanation. I quickly browsed the links you mentioned. It seems you are proposing a universal metrical theory that could be applied to poetries of different languages

What you read is more of a technique ( tool) than a theory, a technique that applies to all quantitative prosodies. Using abstract representation of figures, thus eliminating the barriers of terminology differences between languages.
However, the clarity of figure representation helped me formulate a theory about Arabic prosody.


including English which is considered a stress language and because of that fact people believe quantitative metrics doesn' work best for it. This is an area that is interesting

It is interesting.
Stress and quantitative metrics both refer to two types of rhythm, As there is a difference in vision of the same object due to difference in eye nature ( in humans or say between different animals) The same applies to rhythm hearing criteria , though the variation in rhythm perception between two cultures may be due to more complicated factors. Please see the following link to feel that.

http://www.everypoet.org/pffa/showth...threadid=16003



. In fact many languages Greek, Sanskrit, Latin have used quantitatives meter. Well they are related. But how did Arabic meter come to be quanitative. Arabic is not related to languages mentioned earlier. This meter has worked for Arabic and also in a large number of languages that adopted Arabic meter.

There are few types of prosodies ( less than five, as far as I know ). It is very probable to have two non related languages having the same meter basics.


This meter has a sort of universality to it. I was interested in knowing how much al-Khalil was influenced by sanskrit metrics. Al-Biruni is the only person to have alluded to that proposition. Is it a coincidence? Is it because both meters are quanitative? Or did al-Khalil really base his theory on Indidan metrics. I don't know Arabic but when I saw mention of al-Biruni on your web site I thought you might be talking on the historical aspect of Arabic and Indian metrics.

Do you have any opinion on this? What is the general opinion about this among Arab scholars?

Arab scholars almost unanimously believe that al-Khalil has initiated and completed this science in Arabic. There is evidence of his command of computations and permutations as well as music principles which enabled him to categorize Arabic "wazn" in 15 types "bahr".

I am not a scholar, not even a poet.

I think this is an asset for you, since specialized scholars usaually concentrate on details and it takes an effort for those who follow this approach to to have a panoramic vision.
It is easier for those who look from high outside the field to have a common vision that enables them to visualize the basics after which the comprehension of details become easy.


It's just for my own interest that once a while spend time
deliberating on these issues. I work in the US and am basically form India.
Thank you for your time.
Muneeb

You are welcome. I enjoyed this discussion. I encourage you to follow this interesting concern of yours.
Since this is a valuable discussion, I ask your permission to transfer it to the forum. I suggest to have further discussion there for the readers' benefit and probable participation by others from different cultures which will enrich the subject.

You are welcome

Khashan

***************
5


Dear Khashan,

Thank you for the detailed reply and encouragement. I won't mind if you publish my previous email in the forum.

I'll read your suggested links carefully and get back to you if any coments or questions.

Muneeb
رد مع اقتباس
  #2  
قديم 01-08-2005, 02:20 AM
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Following are two paragraphs with an approximate translation

http://www.alwaraq.com/index2.htm?i=525&page=1
Page 62 :

sorry for refersing direction of > and other clear mistakes due to duality of laguage

وهم يصورون في تعديد الحروف شبه ما صوره الخليل بن أحمد والعروضيون منا للساكن والمتحرك وهما هاتان الصورتان : > 1 فالاول وهو الذي عن اليسار من اجل ان كتابتهم كذلك يسمي "لكك" وهو الخفيف والثاني الذي عن اليمين "كر" وهو الثقيل ووزانه في التقدير انه ضعف الاول لا يسد مكانه الا اثنان من الخفيف ، وفي حروفهم ما يسمى ايضا طويلة ووزانها وزان الثقيلة وأظنها التي تعتل سواكنها وان كنت الى الان لم استيقن حال الخفيف والثقيل بحيث أتمكن من تمثيلهما في العربيه لكن الاغلب على الظن ان الاول ليس بساكن والثلني ليس بمتحرك بل الاول متحرك فقط والثاني مجموع متحرك وساكن كالسبب في عروضنا

They represent the count of numbers in a way similar to what al-Khalil and our prosody scholars do regarding the(sakin = t in English cut) and ( mutaharrek ka in English cut)
[ there are two units]
1 and <
1 = the short ( he calls it light) ( Indian = lakak
( < = the long ( he calls it heavy ) ( Indian kar )
is equivalent to two units of 1 <
I can only represent them in an approximate way in Arabic where
1= mutaharrek....ka in English cut
< = 2= mutahrrek and sakin [ Ka + t ] like our Arabic sabab

**************
page 63

Indian word
" ا>" ثانيهما " كرتك" : kartak
>>" بكش" وهو نصف الشهر ، : baksh = means half the month
>اا" جنن" أي النار : janan = fire
، ا>ا " مذ" ، : moth
اا>" بربت" أي الجبل : berbet = mountain
ويسمى ايضا " هار" و "رس" ، called also har and rus
اااا " كهن " وهو المكعب، : kahan = cube
: >>ا " هست" أي الفيل hest = elephant
>ا> " كام" أي المراد = kam = wanted
ا>> ، >ااا " كسم" = kasm
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  #3  
قديم 01-08-2005, 01:41 PM
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Dear Mr. Muneer


I include here under your valuable comment

In my opinion al-Kalil in formulating his Arud has shown that he was a mind beyond his times. He lived in middle ages but his methods were without doubt of modern age. I have always seen a striking similarity between Noam Chomsky's transformational generative grammar and al-khalil's prosody. In my opinion while Indian prosody was more like a classificatory, a descriptive effort, al-Khalil's prosody is more of a generative character. His circles which were not appreciated much are a proof of the generative character of his prosody. His afa'il are also part of the generative model

****************

Referring to your message and for the benefit of other probable participants who don't know Arabic, here is the necessary information to include your participation.

Go to page :

http://www.arood.com/vb/showthread.p...=2499#post2499

there is a window at the bottom of the page, just copy what you want from word and paste it in this window, then press the bottom right knob


تنفيذ = go ahead


for editing or coloring go the left knob directly over this empty window and press

رد على الموضوع = add reply


after pasting your subject press the lower right button

إرسال رد = go ahead
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